Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#1  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:54 am

I am not sure I am putting this in the best topic area. Perhaps it would have been better under the heart disease and stroke area.

This post may be all over the place, so I apologize in advance. This may be information overload, but I am trying to be sure I give the full picture.

I am a 40 year old overweight man who comes from a family with a very strong history of heart disease and/or strokes. In April 2012 I began having dizzy spells almost constantly. After months of trying to figure this out, I finally was able to put the clues together and find out this was a side effect of statin therapy. After stopping statins and beginning a protocol of supplements that were designed to help me get past this, the dizzy spells stopped. This protocol of supplements includes the following (I am traveling now, but I can provide doses when I get back home): CoQ10 (300-400 mg daily), magnesium, a good multi-vitamin, fish oil, cinnamon, vitamin E, niacin, and a home made drink which contains 18-20g of vitamin C, 5.5g of Lysine, 1g (I think) of proline, Arginine (can't remember how much right now), a quarter teaspoon of turmeric, stevia to sweeten, and cinnamon. I drink this throughout the day.

Monday of this week I had my bloodwork done. The nurse called today and said the following: your white count is good, you're not anemic, your A1C is 5.9, your prostate is perfect (not sure that makes sense - how is prostate determined through bloodwork? Might have misunderstood.), your CMP is very, very good, but now for the bad news. Your total cholesterol is 280 and it was 175 last year. Your Trigcerides are 372 and they were 128 last year. Your good cholesterol is 33 and it was 41 last year. Your LDL is 194 and it was 108 last year. I was not on the statin when this was taken last year. The doctor is wanting me to start taking pravistatin and cholestid and she has told me to stop the niacin as it doesn't seem to be helping.

During the last month I have had DeQuervain's tendonitis, I also think I am having achilles tendonitis starting up. Yes, tendonitis started while on statins. I have also had bronchitis, which I have only recently gotten over. Recently my blood pressure went from approximately 120-130/80-90 to as high as 180/110. I found out that this was due to taking Vimovo for the DeQuervain's tendonitis. Within two days of stopping, my blood pressure was almost normal again, and within three days it was normal again. During this time the doctor had me double my blood pressure medicine (metroprolol) to 100mg a day. Blood pressure is now running 110-120/70-80. The only other medicine or supplements I am taking is a very small dose of sertraline for anxiety, and I sometimes add ginger to my vitamin C drink mixture.

To say that I am disappointed in my test results today is an understatement. I had hoped to see these numbers drop, not increase. My physical is Monday of next week, and I intend on telling the doctor I am not starting the two medicines she has recommended. Nevertheless, I am hoping someone can give me some advice on where I should take this from here. Do I need to up the vitamin C? I don't mind taking it higher if that is a good idea. Is it possible the tendonitis is causing an increased amount of cholesterol in my blood? I haven't had any procedures done in the last year (no root canals or dental work). There is no doubt I need to lose weight and begin exercising - I am very sedentary right now, but I am also trying to make sure I am doing everything else right too.

I would appreciate any advice or feedback. I will have a copy of the full bloodwork in a few days, and would be glad to share all the numbers then if it would help. Thanks.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#2  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:58 am

I probably should have pointed out that I have been taking the supplements, including the vitamin C drink, since June of 2012.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#3  Post by exitium » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:11 am

aineo wrote:I haven't had any procedures done in the last year (no root canals or dental work).


Just some random thoughts.....

The pauling therapy has been shown to cause a temporary increase in cholesterol. As it heals the arterial damage and dislodges cholesterol from the arteries it ends up floating free in the blood stream until it can be removed.

Cholesterol increases in response to toxins so its not just about your dental procedures in the last year its the accumulated dental procedures in your life. Do you have any root canals or amalugum fillings? Over time the root canals can become infected and the more your immune system becomes taxed the less ability it has to control the infection. The filling leech out heavy metals which cause slow damage over time as well.

Cholesterol is also a building block of hormones so a raise in cholesterol is often seen when the body is lacking one or more hormones.

Ill wait for the docs we have here to comment on your meds and the affects they may have but I think if you can tolerate more vit C you should take as much as you can.

On the issue of tendonitis, whats your calcium intake look like? Do you supplement calcium or drink a lot of milk? What form of vit C are you taking? Vit C should help heal collagen based tissues and if its not I would start looking at maybe issues with too much D and not enough A, lacking vit K, magnesium and potassium.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#4  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:29 am

Thanks for your reply, exitium.

exitium wrote:The pauling therapy has been shown to cause a temporary increase in cholesterol. As it heals the arterial damage and dislodges cholesterol from the arteries it ends up floating free in the blood stream until it can be removed.


Am I being unreasonable to think that this temporary increase should be over in 18 months?

exitium wrote:Cholesterol increases in response to toxins so its not just about your dental procedures in the last year its the accumulated dental procedures in your life. Do you have any root canals or amalugum fillings? Over time the root canals can become infected and the more your immune system becomes taxed the less ability it has to control the infection. The filling leech out heavy metals which cause slow damage over time as well.


I have not had a root canal, but I have a few fillings. I am not sure if they are amalgam, but I suspect they are.

exitium wrote:Cholesterol is also a building block of hormones so a raise in cholesterol is often seen when the body is lacking one or more hormones.

Ill wait for the docs we have here to comment on your meds and the affects they may have but I think if you can tolerate more vit C you should take as much as you can.


I can certainly take more. Even beyond BT is not an issue too much for me. I also haven't tested what BT is lately.

exitium wrote:On the issue of tendonitis, whats your calcium intake look like? Do you supplement calcium or drink a lot of milk? What form of vit C are you taking? Vit C should help heal collagen based tissues and if its not I would start looking at maybe issues with too much D and not enough A, lacking vit K, magnesium and potassium.


I usually do not drink milk at all, but lately I have had more dairy products, including milk itself. This is limited to no more than what it takes for a bowl of cereal (my only grain as well). The multi-vitamin I take, Multi-Xtra has 55mg of calcium per day.

Your comment on vitamin D intrigues me. I do take 5000iu of vitamin D3 daily. I get 5000iu of vitamin A in the multi-vitamin. I also get 180mcg of K2 daily through the multi-vitamin. I take 250mg of Magnesium Taurate and 288mg of Magnesium L-Threonate daily. For potassium - I have had low potassium in the past. I try to drink 4-8 ounces of coconut water a few times a week for this, though I haven't had any in the last week or so.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#5  Post by exitium » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:48 am

aineo wrote:Your comment on vitamin D intrigues me. I do take 5000iu of vitamin D3 daily. I get 5000iu of vitamin A in the multi-vitamin. I also get 180mcg of K2 daily through the multi-vitamin. I take 250mg of Magnesium Taurate and 288mg of Magnesium L-Threonate daily. For potassium - I have had low potassium in the past. I try to drink 4-8 ounces of coconut water a few times a week for this, though I haven't had any in the last week or so.


I wonder if this may be part of the tendonitis issue?

Winston-price seems to like a vit A to D ratio of 5:1

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... cs#clarify

Also I have seen many reports of vit D exacerbating magnesium deficiencies because Vit D needs magnesium for many things it does so when extra D is added it increases need for magnesium. Most magnesium proponents have no qualms about recommending 800mg a day.

Id log food for a bit and see where your daily potassium intake is, most people I have conversed with about this find they are no where near the 4700mg RDA value which is often quite conservative. Since I take a lot of vit C myself I have added potassium abscorbate to my mix. 700mg potassium/4000mg ascorbate. I cant use it solely for my vit C intake because I would get too much potassium buts its a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone.

18 months does seem a bit long to have elevated cholesterol from pauling therapy but then again maybe its not totally out of line. Maybe Owen has some more experience there.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#6  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:56 am

Thanks again, exitium. I just realized I didn't answer your question about the kind of vitamin C I am taking. For the most part of the last year I have taken ascorbic acid only (about 18g). For the last six weeks I have been taking a mix of ascorbic acid (about 9g) and sodium ascorbate (about 11g).

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#7  Post by Saw » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:46 am

aineo wrote:and a home made drink which contains 18-20g of vitamin C, 5.5g of Lysine, 1g (I think) of proline, Arginine (can't remember how much right now), a quarter teaspoon of turmeric, stevia to sweeten, and cinnamon. I drink this throughout the day.


Sounds like your mixing up this concoction and taking it throughout the day?
Vit C can lose half its power in 2-4 hours when mixed in water.(Lots of variables here)
Best to mix then drink immediately!

Also Arginine and Lysine should not be taken together as they share
the same transport system. Try to separate by a few hours.
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#8  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:49 am

Saw wrote:Sounds like your mixing up this concoction and taking it throughout the day?
Vit C can lose half its power in 2-4 hours when mixed in water.(Lots of variables here)
Best to mix then drink immediately!

Also Arginine and Lysine should not be taken together as they share
the same transport system. Try to separate by a few hours.


I am mixing it up in the morning and drinking throughout the day - had no idea it could lose potency that quick! Also had no idea about the Lysine and Arginine. Will make changes to how I do this.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#9  Post by davids1 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:57 pm

Hi Aineo,

To add to Exit and Saw's informative posts, you might like to consider the following:

Have you read [at least the first ten paragraphs of] Dr. Cathcart's "famous" "Titrating" article http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm? I ask because, although "18-20g of vitamin C" seems like a reasonable intake [and may seem like a huge intake to you], it may not [at least initially] be nearly enough ["free"/extra/alkalinizing/toxin neutralizing/antioxidizing electrons], given your current health maladies, e.g. you'll note in the article he lists [at least initially] Bowel Tolerance doses of ascorbic acid [for some ailments] in the hundreds of grams per day.

As Exit put it:
I think if you can tolerate more vit C you should take as much as you can. [emphasis mine]
Dosage is THE key! As an example, Aineo, if a doctor prescribed a dose of antibiotic to a patient, it would come with both an amount and frequency of dosage. Hypothetically, if that patient decided to cut that prescribed antibiotic dosage in half, and/or ingest it at one-half the prescribed frequency, and then did not get the results expected, could we really/honestly say that they tried the antibiotic out, and it did not work? And so it is with ascorbic acid. Dr. Cathcart wrote that he did NOT see significant results in his patients UNTIL they approached Bowel Tolerance:
The clinical symptoms of...diseases and other conditions...are markedly ameliorated ONLY as bowel tolerance dose levels (the amount that almost, but not quite, causes diarrhea) are approached. [emphasis mine]
I hope that helps, Aineo, and I wish you the best of success in resolving your health issues!

Sincerely,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#10  Post by Johnwen » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:30 pm

Heres your BIG Problem Right here!!
During this time the doctor had me double my blood pressure medicine (metroprolol) to 100mg a day.


And this is what it's doing to you!
your A1C is 5.9,

Your total cholesterol is 280

Your Trigcerides are 372


Get on your computer and search out Metroprolol and find out what it does to your sugar levels At 5.9 that means your running about 130 Mg/dL on average over the last 3 months. This is a known problem with this drug in that it makes the cells more resistent to intake of insulin/sugar. Which means your energy levels begin to decline and the residual insulin is hitting the liver and the liver is responding with the production of acetyl-CoA which in turn begins the production of more lipids to feed the cells with more fat (lipids).
I could go into a lot more details but you need something soon to present to your Doc on monday So stay with the effects Metropolol has on your sugar levels. An ask for a change in medicine the only beta blocker that has little effects on sugar levels is Coreg (Carvedilol) at doses below 25 Mg. See if the'll go for it, something like 3.125 BID. Being on 100Mg. of Metro- your going to have to titrate down before the switch which at that level could be a 4 week process. If they tell you to just switch you may be in for some serious and weird side effects. They can also last for up to 2 weeks doing it this way!
I have a lot of reserves about any of your supplements causing your problems when your symptoms are so related to the beta blocker your taking.
Again read,Read anything you can on this drug you understand what I'm talking about!!
Stay well!
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#11  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:50 pm

davids1 wrote:Have you read [at least the first ten paragraphs of] Dr. Cathcart's "famous" "Titrating" article http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm?


Thanks David. Just read the article. will start upping the dose as soon as I get home today and find out what my BT is.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#12  Post by aineo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:53 pm

Johnwen,
Thanks for the feedback. I will start reading on Metoprolol tonight. What is your opinion of Calcium Blockers? Dr. Levy seems to think they are a good option in his new book.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#13  Post by Johnwen » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:23 pm

CCB's are a good choice for for most hypertension although it's kind of a coin toss between Ace Inhibitors and CCB's.
I usually tend towards Ace inhibitors first then CCB's.
However it's a much better call then Beta Blockers as a first line.
I usually reserve Beta blockers for more serious cardiac problems then Hypertension But there are always the few who need it.
Again make sure you titrate down from the metoprolol and when you get down to a point where you see a increase in your BP you can start the CCB's as you finsh lowering out of the Meto-. Be warned that you may experience withdrawal symptoms as you lower the doses. Like dizziness, feeling your heart beat, sugar or food cravings if they seem worse then they should be seek help.
Hope you don't experience this, some people don't others get hit hard.
Good luck.
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:40 am

Thanks all. johnwen, vely interesting. Sorry for jumping in late aieno, but in a nutshell, you are on a good supplement program, you stopped statins which had unpleasant side effects in your case, and your cholesterol numbers apparently sky rocketed! (And before I start, my take on Levy's recommendations is that not only are calcium channel blockers, in general, good drugs, but the numero uno calcium channel blocker is magnesium!)

If your blood sugar has elevated - deal with it quickly (That is, if you like feeling in your feet and your eyes and kidneys to work properly). I love the Abbott Free Style Lite because so little blood is required for the test. And as a bonus, it reads vitamin C in the blood :D

So I am jealous of your high cholesterol numbers. After I began vitamin C, my total cholesterol normalized to 180 mg/dl (See the Pauling review of the Ginter work in How To Live Longer and Feel Better, 1986). But then after adding lysine (and proline) it dropped to 160 mg/dl, and my memory fades, but the last measurement may have been even lower than 160 mg/dl. I want mine higher, closer to 180 mg/dl.

The writings of Thomas Levy were an eye opener about the purpose of cholesterol in the human body. One of its major roles is detoxification. Ridding the body of toxins. When the body is fighting toxicity, cholesterol naturally rises, and there may be a close interaction with vitamin C levels, as toxins can lower blood and tissue vitamin C levels. Dr. Levy, a cardiologist at that time, noticed that after he sent his patients to Hal Huggins for dental revisions, invariably their cholesterol dropped! Like clock work. He spent a lot of time in medical libraries trying to find out why, and found the literature that supports this idea. That cholesterol is a good guy. If it is elevated, it is helping you fight the bad guys - sort of like firemen at a fire. If you just looked at this from a high level - you would think every time there are a lot of fireman - there is a fire. These firemen must be bad guys.. But in reality, cholesterol, like the firemen, is being called up to help with some issue.

Now, you were smart to stop the statin, in my opinion, because statins make about as much sense as reducing the number of firemen fighting a fire. The fact that your cholesterol is so high means something is up. Might be a genetic factor, but more likely you have toxicity and in any case, more vitamin C should lower your cholesterol by helping to put the fires out.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#15  Post by aineo » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:47 pm

Johnwen, I have started titrating down the metroprolol by removing a 1/4 of the initial dose. I have only been on this dose for a few weeks, so I feel pretty comfortable coming off that much now. Will then remove an 1/8 of the initial dose each week until I am off - total of 7 weeks.

ofonorow - thank you for your response. As of today I have upped my daily magnesium to 1g (see why below). My blood sugar hasn't elevated, but has remained steady for the last few years. Even so, it needs attention. Hopefully the metroprolol is contributing and getting off will help.

I was interested to read your opinion on the cholesterol. I am also a firm believer it is not the problem, but a symptom of a problem. Thanks for sharing how Levy came to his conclusions about dental work and cholesterol - hadn't heard that.

I have also upped my vitamin C by 4 grams a day, and after I run out of my premixed drink mix (after tomorrow), I will begin separating out the arginine and lysine. Will also not mix with water to sip on all day. Sheesh, learning a lot. :D

One of the recommendations Dr. Levy gave me via email was to find a doctor who would treat the problem. He gave a website with doctors who might fit that description. I have come across one who is close enough I can easily see him and he is an accepted provider on my insurance. His name is Dr. Mark xxxx out of Nashville, TN. It doesn't seem he is an advocate of the Pauling Therapy, but judging from what I have read of his writings, he won't be opposed to it either. It seems he tries to address the root problem through supplements, diet and weight loss, and meds if needed. Tomorrow at my physical I will ask for a referral to him. One of his big recommendations is upping the magnesium to 1g a day. That is one of many though. Would be curious if anyone here has heard of him and has an opinion on his work.


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