Interesting P5P (B6) Thread. Interested in your commentary.

[Blanko]

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/1 ... -function/

Give a good read through that and comment if you have worthwhile and relevant knowledge to share.

[pamojja]

I, too, had one classic symptom of ME/CFS, PEMs (post-exertional malaise).

Therefore, I participated for a long time in the largest ME/CFS forum, PhoenixRising. There I found out more about this crazy disease, where even sights, sounds and smells aren't tolerated by the very severe. And culminate in very long crashes. Not to talk about foods or food-ingredients, and reactions to minuscule nutrients, nowhere else heard.

A unifying cause for ME/CFS isn't found. Ignorant physicians therefore even gaslight them, by telling them 'it's all in their head'. While in reality, the multifactorial metabolic reasons for such a severe disease are simply not sure yet. I have none of such extreme sensitivities. Do you have sensitivities to even the slightest sound, taste or touch? Would such an extreme sensitivity to 50 mg of B6 apply to you too?

If you answer yes, you would find peers at PheonixRising only, who would be able to attempt to give advice. Many ME/CFS suffered for many decades, while trying virtually every supplements on earth. The most common experience there, with supplements or medications is, that they stop working after a short time, or make the condition even worse.

LDN and extracting my only root-canal tooth, along with Mg-sulfate infusion, brought my PEMs into remission. Such measures bring slight relieve to most severe ME/CFS patients only.

[Blanko]

Very interesting. You are highly informed and such a treasure on these forums.

Here's another interesting anecdote:

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/1 ... ithdrawal/

B vitamins result in me feeling horrible and having powerful OCD. I haven't taken them in a long time and always feel worse when taking them. Methylated, standard, doesn't make a difference. Even a small amount now, like opening the pill and taking maybe 1/20 of its contents does this. Blood tests for b12 are normal. Blood tests for thiamine are high/normal (I was taking thiamine alone for a while but it didn't cause the terrible experience).

Niacin alone doesn't make me feel bad. So it's not the thiamine or the niacin. To be honest, I started having weird health issues years ago when using P5P. And to be fair, I commonly feel better when not taking any vitamins at all.

Met B12 makes me feel terrible.

Regular B12 makes me feel ok but if I keep taking it I feel terrible.

Totally bizarre that this person cites detrimental effects from only 1/20 of a capsule of B Complex.

I took a high quality methylated B Complex 2 hours ago and actually felt nothing. Could be the body already is replete?

That person is commenting here as well:

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/6 ... b-complex/

They go by ironfistx.

No clue. But I know when I take B vitamins I feel worse than when I don't. They make my OCD worse. This happens for sure with methyl versions and feasibly with regular versions. When I take b12 separately, methy version makes me feel worse. Cyanocobalamin makes me feel good.

[Blanko]

Also, a very interesting post by you from 2016. You write:

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/5 ... b-complex/

And taking B-complex vitamins at relatively high doses (compared what's possible from nutrition), how you make sure these depreciated B-vitamins, especially those not available as supplements, or maybe not even discovered yet - don't get depleted much faster and depleted?

You replied to LongLife, who said:

As for vitamin B (complex) there are about 30 different B's. Through the years some have dropped off the "list" and I suspect for evil reasons but that is my opinion from research. ...
B-15, the FDA got rid of from the USA market in the 1970's when Russia started using it with magnesium for memory improvement in their space programs and pilot training (they also made racetams / nootropics). B15, B16 & B17 were found by Dr. Krebbs and his son. They were put through hell as they tried to inform the public about their discovery and use against cancer cell division (cure cancer). ...
I use websites like whfoods.com and nutritiondata.self.com to investigate the +- nutrients in food and I try to get a balance of vital amines (vitamins) from diet plus then do some over-kill with some supplements. Vitamin B is right there at the center of the stack, as ALL vitamins are essential for your health, even the ones they have taken out of the text books now. It all goes hand-in-hand. So Now You Know.

Makes sense to me it would not be good over the long term to supplement at high doses with known B vitamins while not taking all those deprecated or unknown. Interested in any informed commentary on this based on the latest knowledge.

I took another methylated B complex now, and the effect is a mild improvement in well being. However, as we know, harmful substances also can make us feel better, such as alcohol and other drugs. How do we know we aren't actually causing more problems by taking just a tiny few known and celebrated isolates? People with various drugs, such as alcohol, start at low doses and then take more and more, loving the effect while simultaneously damaging their bodies.

[GWS]

Maybe there is something to it......something suddenly gave me neuropathy out of the blue. I was taking subliminal Vitamin B12, a B-100 complex, slow Niacin, B-2, and another supplement with B6 in it as suggested by my cardiologist. Didn't really have other symptoms til this, tho. I have been off the B-100 and B-12, and B-6 for 2 months now, but NO relief. Tried Red light treatment, did nothing.....tried Tens unit.....did nothing.

Applying DMSO cream at night, soon to start some Chlorine Dioxide treatment.....Doctors all say live with it....it's permanent....except eDOC. But I still don't know who the hell he is...... I don't care how long he's been posting here, he's still hiding behind a fake name, so maybe he's a scam, and his patients too for all I know.

[Blanko]

Maybe there is something to it......something suddenly gave me neuropathy out of the blue. I was taking subliminal Vitamin B12, a B-100 complex, slow Niacin, B-2, and another supplement with B6 in it as suggested by my cardiologist. Didn't really have other symptoms til this, tho. I have been off the B-100 and B-12, and B-6 for 2 months now, but NO relief. Tried Red light treatment, did nothing.....tried Tens unit.....did nothing.

I noticed how much B6 of the pyridoxine form you were taking and I have no doubt that caused your neuropathy.

There are many reports of B6 toxicity. Search reddit, Facebook, and elsewhere. Some get it from relatively lose doses of pyridoxine. Can get it also from P5P, but not as easily. At one point I was overdosing a methylated, active B Complex because I liked the feeling I was getting from it, and after a while of that, which worked out to perhaps 150 mg/day of P5P, I experienced some strong neuropathy in one of my arms. Discontinued it immediately since I know B6 can cause neuropathy, and it went away after a few days.

Also depends on how much water you drink. Drinking more water makes overdoses of B6 less toxic. However, toxicity from pyridoxine definitely will be more persistent than toxicity from P5P. At least that's my understanding based on some reading.

Have you had your B6 levels tested?

Also, my suspicion is that taking the recognized, celebrated B vitamins must in general ultimately do some harm since all the non-celebrated other compounds that are important too are not being supplemented at all while these celebrated compounds are supplemented in mega doses. However, B6 certainly is the most toxic and problematic of them all.

I have been off the B-100 and B-12, and B-6 for 2 months now, but NO relief.

In this case it sounds like permanent damage was done. However, one thing you should first try, besides excessive water intake to flush out your body, is supplementing with some P5P.

See for example:

"Unfortunately, large amounts of pyridoxine can compete with the active P5P form at the B6 receptors. This means the inactive form can actually get into the B6 receptors by mistake. And because it’s inactive, it won’t work. This can result in an overall reduction of B6 activity."

The Thorne B Complex has a low dose of P5P at 10 mg per capsule. Still a mega dose compared to what is available in food.

Current era science likes to grossly oversimplify the chemical composition of food. Fact is there's an amazing array of compounds besides what is commonly talked about, celebrated, and supplemented.

Also, in the thread I linked in the original post, the OP there cites two links before concluding:

Brain damage and cognitive deficits greatly precede neuropathy, even at more reasonable doses.

Have you noticed any cognitive deficits?

[Blanko]

You wrote:

I take Pyridoxine B-6 100mg/day (B-100 capsule Now brand) plus a whole 6 more mg's from a One-A-Day Multiple (for +50 year-olds) for a grand total of 106mg/day. In the multiple, I have no idea what kind of B-6 it is....but 6mg isn't much.

For how long were you taking this before the neuropathy emerged? After the neuropathy emerged, for how long did you continue taking it?

Damage would be more likely permanent the longer you continued the B6 after experiencing neuropathy.

Think of it like this: it takes much more of something to damage healthy nerve structures but once those nerve structures already are damaged it takes less and less of that something to inflict still more damage. If the dose remained high such that it was continually pummeling wounded structures, permanent damage becomes increasingly likely.

I've read many reports of people in agony from B6 toxicity, usually from the form you were taking.

Besides some low dose P5P supplementation, you will want to drink a great deal of water and use a sauna and/or steam room to help flush your body. Probably niacin should be helpful as well. Coffee, tea, patience, and time.

[pamojja]

Also, in the thread I linked in the original post, the OP there cites two links before concluding:

Brain damage and cognitive deficits greatly precede neuropathy, even at more reasonable doses.

Have you noticed any cognitive deficits?

If you follow the links, you find the opinion of a very knowledgeable life-extensionist. With the concluding remark:

In addition to the lack of any strong reason to expect a benefit for these substances in healthy life extensionists, the risk side of the risk:reward calculus may very well be different for us than for the patients in human trials or their rodent analogs. For instance, to the extent that these agents' mechanism of action is as carbonyl traps, it is entirely reasonable to speculate that due to sheer stoichiometry between agent and target molecule, a similar dose to that used in diabetic and/or renally-impaired humans would leave much more of the molecule intact in circulation rather than being sequestered or modified by interaction with abundant substrate.

I already recognized that PM and P5P were by a substantial margin the most tenuous and risky of supplement gambles that I was making; this evidence clearly takes that calculus, straps it to an anvil, and pushes it over the edge. It is extremely clear to me that no healthy, normal life extensionist should continue taking these supplements as antiglycation agents.I would be inclined to counsel against it even in diabetic patients, pending further evidence on either risk or reward.

Which is the perspective of a very healthy calorie restriction life extensionist. The risk-benefits ratio for mortally ill, with many chronic diseases like me, is very different.

Brain damage and cognitive deficits greatly precede neuropathy, even at more reasonable doses.

The air of certainty, this is spoken from first-hand experience, isn't actually found with the more carefully worded speculation of that knowledgeable in that link:

It is entirely reasonable to think that cognitive deficits and brain damage might manifest at lower doses than those required for neuropathy, depending on the disposition, storage, metabolism, and requirements of the brain vs the periphery.

But practically I found such cognitive deficit only occurring with overly sensitive patients, like ME/CFS. Therefore, my presumption that the original OP is actually suffering from it too.


I for example experienced from mega-doses of all Bs only the following side-effects: flushing from niacin, reduced to none by habituation. Claw tension at a certain dose-limit from choline, lifted by increasing inositol intake (up to 11 g/d), and neuropathy from up to 150 mg/d of pyridoxine, completely reversed after 1 year with reduced pyridoxine and increased P5P.

And not to forget I experienced remissions: from a walking-disabilty from PAD, from symptoms of COPD, from pre-diabetes and PEMs. All diseases considered non-reversible and mecilessly progressing by standard medical practice. The opposite, reversal of permanent damage by cronic diseases, by now 15 years in part by overdosing with B-vitamins.

Damage would be more likely permanent the longer you continued the B6 after experiencing neuropathy.

I doubt permanent damage from B6 induced neuropathy, if discontinued. Even with most sensitive and cognitive deficits, ME/CFS for many decades, some rare cases still experience remission after such a long time. Which wouldn't be possible with permanent brain damage.

On the other hand, with diabetes - the other most likely cause for permanent neuropathy - not in remission, neuropathy will last till the end.

[Blanko]

Excellent again. As well, how long do you think after discontinuing B vitamins supplementation will it take the body to more efficiently process the low levels of B vitamins in food?

Someone on the other forum posits the body becomes cumulatively less efficient at processing these vitamins the more you supplement.

Also, what is PM?

"I already recognized that PM and P5P were by a substantial margin the most tenuous and risky of supplement gambles...."

[Blanko]

GWS, I suggest trying benfotiamine for your neuropathy based on an anecdote I just read.

[Blanko]

Relevant commentary from a review:

I used to think this was one of the best B complex. Unfortunately, new research (The vitamin B6 paradox on researchgate (full study free) from 10/2017 is indicating that the pyridoxine form of B6 INHIBITS the active B6 form P5P so it is actually working against you when you supplement pyridoxine (not P5P) and working instead toward making you more deficient instead in B6 as you take more pyridoxine. It also was found to significantly increase cell death the more you take in SHSY5Y cells, even in lower doses as well. It is the toxic form. It mentions that Lareb reported cases in which even lower doses (2 mg/day) of vitamin B6 in pyridoxine form gave the same complaints of neuropathy as high doses. So while this is new information that Thorne may not know about yet, it seems that its best to avoid pyridoxine and use only P5P form for B6 and might want to check your other vitamins for the ingredient. According to the european food safety authority, the tolerable upper intake levels for vitamin b6 pyridoxine is 25mg per day and this was before any of this information, and this product contains the maximum but is typically in many other products you may use. Hopefully they will reformulate it and I will certainly consider repurchase and changing the rating if they do, as it was great otherwise. The thorne basic b complex has P5P but has a super high dose of Thiamin and Niacin that some may have issues with so I have generally used Douglas Laboratories B Complex with Metafolin, or occasionally Seeking Health B Minus when I dont need the B12/Folate.

[pamojja]

Also, what is PM?

Pyridoxamin, a vitamin B6 version with antiglycation effects. Therefore, patented in the US as medication and since then no more available there.

.. As well, how long do you think after discontinuing B vitamins supplementation will it take the body to more efficiently process the low levels of B vitamins in food?

Someone on the other forum posits the body becomes cumulatively less efficient at processing these vitamins the more you supplement.

There are other reasons, like increasing aging or chronic diseases, so that B vitamins are less likely less processed efficiently. Therefore, the higher need of supplementation with age and disease.

My experience is the opposite, with low vitamin intake they exert only a small cumulative effect in prevention of disease. At large doses, consistently taken, they exert better pharmacological therapeutic effects than medications. Without catastrophic side effects. Discontinued it takes some time, but ultimately one eventually will end where one started, with the only difference of higher age and more diseases of older age, simply due to the passage of time.

Therefore, are so hated by the pharmaceutical industry. And therefore designed a medication approval process, where only patentable molecules (ie. synthetic) can be patented. No naturally occurring molecules, like vitamins, without such dangerous side effects.

[pamojja]

It mentions that Lareb reported cases in which even lower doses (2 mg/day) of vitamin B6 in pyridoxine form gave the same complaints of neuropathy as high doses. So while this is new information that Thorne may not know about yet, it seems that its best to avoid pyridoxine and use only P5P form for B6 and might want to check your other vitamins for the ingredient.

It is not new information that deficiency as well as certain high doses of B6 both cause neuropathy. Again, biochemical individuality and individual rare sensitivities. Pyridoxine for most is working. For some like me, it's working (without neuropathy) below 100 mg/d. And a few better have to avoid pyridoxine completely.

One sign of vitamin B6 repletion is renewed recalls of dreams. Not found on ingredients labels. Also not with the RDA, nor B-vitamin serum tests.

ccording to the european food safety authority, the tolerable upper intake levels for vitamin b6 pyridoxine is 25mg per day

Due to such non-differentiating fearmongering, the EU disallowed any daily dose above 25 mg/d of B6-vitamins, pyridoxine or pyridoxal-5-phosphate regardless. Nonavailability of no higher doses made me use an old LEF bottle with 240 mg pyridoxine capsules, by taking half of such a pill a day. Since I need about 150 mg/d B6 to keep my B6 sufficiency (and homocysteine low).

Therefore, such non-differentiating fearmongering, through the prohibition of certain doses, indirectly forced my to use pyridoxine at higher dose, and thereby my neuropathy. Thanks to such non-differentiating fearmongering.

I have to use many more 25 mg p5p pills per day now.

[pamojja]

I have been off the B-100 and B-12, and B-6 for 2 months now, but NO relief. .....did nothing.

Took about a year for me, for the pyridoxine induced neuropathy to reverse. So no reason to try everything out of desperation. Would be rather surprising if gone after such a short time.

However, with diabetes, as in a co-factored neuropathy, it might be wise to do everything to get diabetes into remission first.

[ofonorow]

I'm not sure what I can add, as I generally parrot Linus Pauling, and lately Anthony William (Medical Medium). However, every time I see one of my brilliant alternative doctors, she stresses that I take the P-5-P form of Vitamin B6 because P5P has a property of "expelling all toxins" from cells. If this is true, then what is being described is a herx-style detox response. Rather than P5P making people sick, it would be making their condition better (while at the same time they are feeling worse, as the rest of the body has to deal with the expelled toxins.)

If this is true, it raises the idea of also taking glutathione to assist with this detox. I am learning that the half-life of glutathione is 7.5 minutes. This means that if you take a 500 mg tablet, once it enters the blood stream, 7.5 minutes later, there would 250 mg of Glutathione available. (Vitamin C's half-life is 30 minutes). If my doctor is correct (she is human after all) then glutathione therapy (along with high vitamin C) would be a good idea.

FYI, I have been listening to medical doctors who practice using lifewave patches. The lifewave Glutathione patch is an ultra-powerful way to have your own body (liver) produce GSH, and keep levels elevated.

As to whether we should be taking a B-complex as Linus Pauling advised, the first thing we should remember is that ALL vitamins were discovered from their deficiency disease (maybe not vitamin E, unless the deficiency disease is heart attack) . People die who aren't getting the vitamin. Vitamins B1 and B3 have interesting histories in this regard.

I don't remember the Vitamin B6 deficiency disease, but a long time ago (and far, far away) carpal tunnel syndrome was thought to be caused by a vitamin B6 deficiency, causing a weakening of the linings that surround nerve cells in the wrists.

Lovely google tells us:

Vitamin B6 deficiency is associated with microcytic anemia, electroencephalographic abnormalities, dermatitis with cheilosis (scaling on the lips and cracks at the corners of the mouth) and glossitis (swollen tongue), depression and confusion, and weakened immune function [1,2]

That brings us to the Medical Medium.

It is interesting that the Medium's source doesn't recommend vitamin B6, in the same way that the intelligence doesn't recommend vitamin K, vitamin A and a few others. (Every protocol includes vitamin C, vitamin B12, zinc and usually folate. Most anti-viral protocols include lysine.) Not recommending a supplements is taken to mean that if you follow the "mostly fruit/vegetable, low fat, low protein" diet recommendations, there would generally be enough of that vitamin in the diet.

However the source does recommend B-Complex in various protocols, (The recommended product, I now notice, has both ordinary and the PHP form of vitamin B6 in small amounts).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JY ... s_li_ss_tl

The source behind the Medical Medium claims to know and tells us what causes CFS and neuropathy. And its not high blood sugar and/or diabetes per se. Off to my kindle as I may as well quote them verbatim. From memory, various viruses emit various neurotoxins, and these toxins can cause rashes, or, depending on what the virus strain releases, the toxin can attach to and attack nerves. Thus a viral (emission) causes neuropathy. These books tell us that all viruses have been manipulated in clandestine laboratories on Earth, and these "enhanced" viruses are the cause of so many (most) chronic illness, including CFS. And the books are manuals on how to overcome these man-made viruses, usually deep in our tissues and normally dormant unless our immune systems weaken.